Inverse Relay #1, step 1
David J. Peterson writes in Jim Henry's gjâ-zym-byn
24 June 2007

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gjâ-zym-byn website

David J. Peterson's gjâ-zym-byn text

Jim Henry's corrected gjâ-zym-byn text

nu-sǒ i ħun-tôn θij θâŋ-twâl-van mje mâ-vĭ-ĵĭn tu-i. nî'šĭm kâ-i žâ-van ƥ tu-i. čyw pen kâ-i sru-van rĭm-van ƥ ʝâr-i, mǒj nu-šar ruŋ-sun-zô nî'šĭm mĭ-i, te kâ-i ðu-van heŋ rĭm-zô ƥ ʝâr-i. ƥ mĭ-i bĭw-bô jâ-o, nu-šar lârm-gĭn- zô. mâ-vĭ-ĵĭn voj ruŋ-zô mâ-ŝy-ĵĭn tu-i, nu-šar ƥ-vĭ ŋâw-o frâ-zô ƥ-ŝy tu-i., gân-lǒ lârm-van ƥ-vĭ ʝâr-i. twâ-zô ƥ tu-i Φǒ {*čyw pen kâ-i ðu-van heŋ rĭm-zô}. ƥ- vĭ ŋâw-o twâ-zô mâ-ŝy-ĵĭn tu-i hǒŋ ħun-tôn θř ruŋ-zô mwe ƥ-vĭ.

vĭj sǒ i ħun-tôn θij θâŋ-twâl-van mje mâ-vĭ-ĵĭn tu-i. nî'šĭm kâ-i žâ-van ƥ tu-i. čyw pen kâ-i sru-van rĭm-van ƥ ʝâr-i, mǒj vĭj lǒ i nî'šĭm jâ-o sun-bô purj, te kâ-i ðu-van heŋ rĭm-van ƥ ʝâr-i. ƥ mĭ-i bĭw-bô jâ-o, nu-šar lârm-gĭn- zô. mâ-vĭ-ĵĭn voj ruŋ-zô mâ-ŝy-ĵĭn tu-i, nu-šar ƥ-vĭ ŋâw-o frâ-zô ƥ-ŝy tu-i, gân-lǒ lârm-van ƥ-vĭ ʝâr-i. twâ-zô ƥ tu-i Φǒ {*čyw pen kâ-i ðu-van heŋ rĭm-zô}. ƥ- vĭ ŋâw-o twâ-zô mâ-ŝy-ĵĭn tu-i hǒŋ ħun-tôn θř ruŋ-zô mwe ƥ-vĭ.

David J. Peterson's smooth English version of the text

Once a boy sat under a tree. He was waiting for night. He wanted to see the stars, but when night came he could not see them. He was sad and started crying. A girl came and asked him why he was crying. He said “I cannot see the stars!”. The girl told him to move away from the tree.

Comments on the corrections made

From: Jim Henry 
Date: Thu, Jul 19, 2007 at 7:59 PM
Subject: Re: Inverse Relay Text
To: David Peterson 


> From: David J. Peterson 
 > Date: 24-Jun-2007 04:05
 > Subject: Inverse Relay Text
 
 Just a couple of corrections of actual errors, then
 some stylistic comments.
 

 > nu-sǒ i ħun-tôn θij θâŋ-twâl-van mje mâ-vĭ-ĵĭn tu-i.
 > nî'šĭm kâ-i žâ-van ƥ tu-i.  čyw pen kâ-i sru-van rĭm-van ƥ
 > ʝâr-i, mǒj nu-šar ruŋ-sun-zô nî'šĭm mĭ-i, te kâ-i ðu-van
 
 "mǒj vĭj lǒ i nî'šĭm jâ-o sun-bô purj, ....."
 
 but when the environment entered the night-state....
 
 "ruŋ-zô" means "going/coming/moving from place to place",
 and isn't used metaphorically for changes of state.
 

 > heŋ rĭm-zô ƥ ʝâr-i.  ƥ mĭ-i bĭw-bô jâ-o, nu-šar lârm-gĭn-
 
 "rĭm-van"
 

 > zô.  mâ-vĭ-ĵĭn voj ruŋ-zô mâ-ŝy-ĵĭn tu-i, nu-šar ƥ-vĭ
 > ŋâw-o frâ-zô ƥ-ŝy tu-i., gân-lǒ lârm-van ƥ-vĭ ʝâr-i.
 
 "gân-lǒ-ř lârm-van"
 
 I'm not sure I wouldn't use interrogative "gân-nǒ-ř"
 rather than relative "gân-lǒ-ř" in an indirect quote
 context like this.  I'll have to think about it.
 

 > twâ-zô ƥ tu-i Φǒ {*čyw pen kâ-i ðu-van heŋ rĭm-zô}.  ƥ-
 > vĭ ŋâw-o twâ-zô mâ-ŝy-ĵĭn tu-i hǒŋ ħun-tôn θř ruŋ-zô
 > mwe ƥ-vĭ.
 
 Stylistics:
 
 "nu sǒ i" might work better as "vĭj sǒ i" -- in either
 case without a hyphen.
 
 Since you've got the agent or experiencer at the
 end of most sentences, you can omit "tu-i" or "ʝâr-i"
 in those places.  That includes the last sentence,
 

 > ƥ-
 > vĭ ŋâw-o twâ-zô mâ-ŝy-ĵĭn [tu-i] hǒŋ ħun-tôn θř ruŋ-zô
 > mwe ƥ-vĭ.
 
 because "hǒŋ" ends the main clause and starts the
 subordinate clause, and you have the agent of the
 main clause right before "hǒŋ".
 
 Also, there are several places where you might
 have embedded the subject pronoun into the verb,
 e.g.:
 
 "nî'šĭm kâ-i žâ-ƥ-van."
 
 The disambiguation of pronouns as "ƥ-vĭ" and "ƥ-ŝy"
 isn't necessary in every place you used them;
 for instance, I might have written something like
 
 mâ-vĭ-ĵĭn voj ruŋ-zô mâ-ŝy-ĵĭn, nu-šar ƥ-vĭ
 ŋâw-o frâ-ƥ-zô, gân-lǒ-ř lârm-ƥ-van .
 
 
 It was a great pleasure to read your text and understand
 it at once.  I said when we were planning the relay,
 
 > Besides, you get to enjoy the fun of reading
 > text in your conlang that you didn't write
 > -- that would be a big plus in this kind of relay for
 > those who are trying to become fluent in their conlangs.
 > When you reread text you wrote yourself,
 > how can you tell how much of your comprehension
 > of it is really due to parsing and understanding
 > it linguistically, and how much due to just being
 > reminded of what you were thinking when you wrote it?
 
 And it was nice to have this additional confirmation that
 gjâ-zym-byn really "works", even though I've been
 using it for years.
 


 --
 Jim Henry
 http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry


From: David J. Peterson 
Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2007 at 12:49 AM
Subject: Re: Inverse Relay Text
To: Jim Henry 


Hi Jim,
 
 This is long overdue, but I thought I'd give you some comments
 on your comments.
 

 <<
 but when the environment entered the night-state....
 
 "ruŋ-zô" means "going/coming/moving from place to place",
 and isn't used metaphorically for changes of state.
  >>
 
 I'll think you'll find with an inverse relay like this, participants
 will resort to metaphorical extension far more than they would
 in even their own artlangs.  It's useful!
 

 <<
 Also, there are several places where you might
 have embedded the subject pronoun into the verb,
 e.g.:
 
 "nî'šĭm kâ-i žâ-ƥ-van."
  >>
 
 I must admit, I didn't feel comfortable with this practice,
 for whatever reason, so I opted not to.  I liked the free-standing
 ones.  It might have to do with the following:
 

 <<
 The disambiguation of pronouns as "ƥ-vĭ" and "ƥ-ŝy"
 isn't necessary in every place you used them;
 for instance, I might have written something like
 
 mâ-vĭ-ĵĭn voj ruŋ-zô mâ-ŝy-ĵĭn, nu-šar ƥ-vĭ
 ŋâw-o frâ-ƥ-zô, gân-lǒ-ř lârm-ƥ-van .
  >>
 
 I went ahead and played it safe pretty much everywhere
 because of the nature of the translation--i.e., a relay.  Going
 into a language where there is no gender (or where gender
 is optional), it's often best to make an effort to make sure
 the genders are distinguished in some way to preserve the
 text.  Well, if that's the goal.  If you want to mess the text up,
 degendering--or neutering--it is a great way to do so.  :)
 

 <<
 It was a great pleasure to read your text and understand
 it at once.
  >>
 
 And that allows me to breathe a sigh of relay!  At the outset,
 at least, I was afraid I was going to send off the text, and you
 were going to e-mail me back saying, "This is just a bunch of
 random words strewn about the page; I can't make sense of
 it at all."  Success!  I do think it wasn't as hard as others were
 making it out to be.  Whether the fact that I was generating
 the text and your website was well documented had a lot to
 do with this, I can't say, but the task, at least, didn't seem
 insurmountable to me.  Hope we can do it again, and get a
 larger turnout!
 


 -David
 *******************************************************************
 "A male love inevivi i'ala'i oku i ue pokulu'ume o heki a."
 "No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
 
 -Jim Morrison
 
 http://dedalvs.free.fr/



From: Jim Henry 
Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2007 at 11:37 AM
Subject: Re: Inverse Relay Text
To: "David J. Peterson" 


On 7/29/07, David J. Peterson  wrote:
 
 > I'll think you'll find with an inverse relay like this, participants
 > will resort to metaphorical extension far more than they would
 > in even their own artlangs.  It's useful!
 
 Probably so.
 

 > I went ahead and played it safe pretty much everywhere
 > because of the nature of the translation--i.e., a relay.  Going
 > into a language where there is no gender (or where gender
 > is optional), it's often best to make an effort to make sure
 > the genders are distinguished in some way to preserve the
 > text.  Well, if that's the goal.  If you want to mess the text up,
 > degendering--or neutering--it is a great way to do so.  :)
 
 That makes sense.

 
 > it at all."  Success!  I do think it wasn't as hard as others were
 > making it out to be.  Whether the fact that I was generating
 > the text and your website was well documented had a lot to
 > do with this, I can't say, but the task, at least, didn't seem
 > insurmountable to me.  Hope we can do it again, and get a
 > larger turnout!
 
 Yes, let's.  Maybe next Spring or thereabouts, after the
 next regular relay and before LCC3?

 --
 Jim Henry
 http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry


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